Battery problem update

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Mike
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Post by Mike »

Chocky wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:52 pm The 12 volt battery is charged all the time when the engine is running and also during a start stop.
The 48 volt battery is charged during regen if there is enough space and can also be charge by the engine if the charge is to low.
Remember most dealers don't know how mild hybrids work.
Should have realised they didn’t really know although I might have confused him because we had been talking about my van.
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Stoopo
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Post by Stoopo »

The 12v should charge when the engine is running and they do. However the battery capacity is lower than older cars and for some reason they can lose charge quite quickly. Probably one of the modules not shutting down correctly. A module update and a Varta sorted my issue but I still get sync shutting down to save the battery quite often if it’s not used for a day or two.

As far as I know the 48v only charges by regeneration.
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4251
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Post by 4251 »

Chocky wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:52 pm The 12 volt battery is charged all the time when the engine is running and also during a start stop.
The 48 volt battery is charged during regen if there is enough space and can also be charge by the engine if the charge is to low.
Remember most dealers don't know how mild hybrids work.
Yes the 48v battery must be charged to a minimum level by the engine if it requires it, it is needed to start the car unless the Ford system is completely different to all others. The normal mild hybrid systems have a 48v starter generator so it is important the 48v battery maintains a minimum charge. The 12v system is normally charged via the 48v system utilising a DC 48v to DC 12v converter as they do not have a 12v alternator fitted
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Stoopo
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Post by Stoopo »

4251 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:43 pm
Chocky wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:52 pm The 12 volt battery is charged all the time when the engine is running and also during a start stop.
The 48 volt battery is charged during regen if there is enough space and can also be charge by the engine if the charge is to low.
Remember most dealers don't know how mild hybrids work.
Yes the 48v battery must be charged to a minimum level by the engine if it requires it, it is needed to start the car unless the Ford system is completely different to all others. The normal mild hybrid systems have a 48v starter generator so it is important the 48v battery maintains a minimum charge. The 12v system is normally charged via the 48v system utilising a DC 48v to DC 12v converter as they do not have a 12v alternator fitted

Not sure that’s the case with the Puma. I understand the 12v starts the car - hence it won’t start when it’s flat. The 48v only works the stop/start element of ignition, through the generator. Obviously it works the hybrid motor as well.

The 12v charges through the 48v system - that’s correct as there is no alternator - but it starts the car, not the 48v.

I’ve had occasions, quite often, when the 48v does not have enough charge to enable stop/start and it is switched off until the 48v is recharged through the brake regeneration system.
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4251
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Post by 4251 »

Stoopo wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:56 pm
4251 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:43 pm
Chocky wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:52 pm The 12 volt battery is charged all the time when the engine is running and also during a start stop.
The 48 volt battery is charged during regen if there is enough space and can also be charge by the engine if the charge is to low.
Remember most dealers don't know how mild hybrids work.
Yes the 48v battery must be charged to a minimum level by the engine if it requires it, it is needed to start the car unless the Ford system is completely different to all others. The normal mild hybrid systems have a 48v starter generator so it is important the 48v battery maintains a minimum charge. The 12v system is normally charged via the 48v system utilising a DC 48v to DC 12v converter as they do not have a 12v alternator fitted

Not sure that’s the case with the Puma. I understand the 12v starts the car - hence it won’t start when it’s flat. The 48v only works the stop/start element of ignition, through the generator. Obviously it works the hybrid motor as well.

The 12v charges through the 48v system - that’s correct as there is no alternator - but it starts the car, not the 48v.

I’ve had occasions, quite often, when the 48v does not have enough charge to enable stop/start and it is switched off until the 48v is recharged through the brake regeneration system.
Thats not the norm, will have to lift the bonnet of one and take a look. The point of a 48v system is it uses a 48v starter/generator, it won’t start without the 12v in anycase as that’s needed for engine ignition, Fuelling, engine/starter control etc. They don’t normally have a 12v starter motor, defeats the object. Can’t believe they rely solely on regen to charge the 48v battery, it would be almost permanently flat in many scenarios. Like I said the charger is usually the starter and they are both 48v (normally!!) In any case the hybrid ST claims 170hp including the motor power, can’t see how they could claim that unless the battery is kept charged at least most of the time as relying in regen would be useless. Regen charging has been utilised on none hybrid pure 12v cars for over 20 years now, ie they step up charging when you coast or brake and reduce or minimise it under power, nothing new about that, no charging comes from the brakes (obviously) it comes from the engine drive to the generator as it always has done

Not having stop start available is common in many scenarios on hybrids and none hybrids. Will look into this now, sounds like a half way system if thats the case
Last edited by 4251 on Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by 4251 »

IMG_0455.jpeg

This is a schematic of the Delphi system , and pretty much the norm, apart from the supercharger!
MadTruckeer
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Post by MadTruckeer »

4251 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:28 am IMG_0455.jpeg

This is a schematic of the Delphi system , and pretty much the norm, apart from the supercharger!
Morning all.
That's interesting read thanks 4251.
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Stoopo
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Post by Stoopo »

4251 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:28 am IMG_0455.jpeg

This is a schematic of the Delphi system , and pretty much the norm, apart from the supercharger!
I don’t think that’s the Ford system unless they have changed it.
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Chocky
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Post by Chocky »

4251 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:16 am
Stoopo wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:56 pm
4251 wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:43 pm

Yes the 48v battery must be charged to a minimum level by the engine if it requires it, it is needed to start the car unless the Ford system is completely different to all others. The normal mild hybrid systems have a 48v starter generator so it is important the 48v battery maintains a minimum charge. The 12v system is normally charged via the 48v system utilising a DC 48v to DC 12v converter as they do not have a 12v alternator fitted

Not sure that’s the case with the Puma. I understand the 12v starts the car - hence it won’t start when it’s flat. The 48v only works the stop/start element of ignition, through the generator. Obviously it works the hybrid motor as well.

The 12v charges through the 48v system - that’s correct as there is no alternator - but it starts the car, not the 48v.

I’ve had occasions, quite often, when the 48v does not have enough charge to enable stop/start and it is switched off until the 48v is recharged through the brake regeneration system.
Thats not the norm, will have to lift the bonnet of one and take a look. The point of a 48v system is it uses a 48v starter/generator, it won’t start without the 12v in anycase as that’s needed for engine ignition, Fuelling, engine/starter control etc. They don’t normally have a 12v starter motor, defeats the object. Can’t believe they rely solely on regen to charge the 48v battery, it would be almost permanently flat in many scenarios. Like I said the charger is usually the starter and they are both 48v (normally!!) In any case the hybrid ST claims 170hp including the motor power, can’t see how they could claim that unless the battery is kept charged at least most of the time as relying in regen would be useless. Regen charging has been utilised on none hybrid pure 12v cars for over 20 years now, ie they step up charging when you coast or brake and reduce or minimise it under power, nothing new about that, no charging comes from the brakes (obviously) it comes from the engine drive to the generator as it always has done

Not having stop start available is common in many scenarios on hybrids and none hybrids. Will look into this now, sounds like a half way system if thats the case
Lot to unpack there. The Ford Puma has a 12 volt starter and a 48 volt BISG. The 12 volt starter is used for the first start before the mild hybrid system is enabled after which the 48 volt BISG handles all stop/starts.
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Post by 4251 »

Chocky wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 11:03 pm
4251 wrote: Thu Jul 18, 2024 7:16 am
Stoopo wrote: Wed Jul 17, 2024 6:56 pm


Not sure that’s the case with the Puma. I understand the 12v starts the car - hence it won’t start when it’s flat. The 48v only works the stop/start element of ignition, through the generator. Obviously it works the hybrid motor as well.

The 12v charges through the 48v system - that’s correct as there is no alternator - but it starts the car, not the 48v.

I’ve had occasions, quite often, when the 48v does not have enough charge to enable stop/start and it is switched off until the 48v is recharged through the brake regeneration system.
Thats not the norm, will have to lift the bonnet of one and take a look. The point of a 48v system is it uses a 48v starter/generator, it won’t start without the 12v in anycase as that’s needed for engine ignition, Fuelling, engine/starter control etc. They don’t normally have a 12v starter motor, defeats the object. Can’t believe they rely solely on regen to charge the 48v battery, it would be almost permanently flat in many scenarios. Like I said the charger is usually the starter and they are both 48v (normally!!) In any case the hybrid ST claims 170hp including the motor power, can’t see how they could claim that unless the battery is kept charged at least most of the time as relying in regen would be useless. Regen charging has been utilised on none hybrid pure 12v cars for over 20 years now, ie they step up charging when you coast or brake and reduce or minimise it under power, nothing new about that, no charging comes from the brakes (obviously) it comes from the engine drive to the generator as it always has done

Not having stop start available is common in many scenarios on hybrids and none hybrids. Will look into this now, sounds like a half way system if thats the case
Lot to unpack there. The Ford Puma has a 12 volt starter and a 48 volt BISG. The 12 volt starter is used for the first start before the mild hybrid system is enabled after which the 48 volt BISG handles all stop/starts.
If so it’s seems a wasteful inefficient design. Why on earth would you need a 12v starter motor when you have a more efficient 48v starter/generator. Next someone will likrly say it’s also still got a 12v Alternator! Has anyone actually seen or got a proper schematic drawing of the Ford system rather than speculation? I doubt Ford designed the system, it is usually provided by specialist vehicle electrical system providers.
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